The Ky Fan Norms and Beyond: Dual Norms and Combinations for Matrix Optimization
Abstract
In this article, we explore the use of various matrix norms for optimizing functions of weight matrices, a crucial problem in training large language models. Moving beyond the spectral norm underlying the Muon update, we leverage duals of the Ky Fan -norms to introduce a family of Muon-like algorithms we name Fanions, which are closely related to Dion. By working with duals of convex combinations of the Ky Fan -norms with either the Frobenius norm or the norm, we construct the families of F-Fanions and S-Fanions, respectively. Their most prominent members are F-Muon and S-Muon. We complement our theoretical analysis with an extensive empirical study of these algorithms across a wide range of tasks and settings, demonstrating that F-Muon and S-Muon consistently match Muon's performance, while outperforming vanilla Muon on a synthetic linear least squares problem.
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Cite
@article{arxiv.2512.09678,
title = {The Ky Fan Norms and Beyond: Dual Norms and Combinations for Matrix Optimization},
author = {Alexey Kravatskiy and Ivan Kozyrev and Nikolai Kozlov and Alexander Vinogradov and Daniil Merkulov and Ivan Oseledets},
journal= {arXiv preprint arXiv:2512.09678},
year = {2025}
}
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31 pages